What factors are considered in the length of a setlist? I know that they are going to be shorter for festivals but just wondered how the current setlists have started at 22 songs gone down to 16 and are now back to 20-22 songs.

Well of course it's all down to the artist. Most lengthen shows as a tour progresses and I personally think 1hour 45 should be the minimum for an artist of BF's stature and catalogue. The choice of songs, running order can vary on the crowd, venue and weather if it's outdoors.

I sincerely hope that Reason or Rhyme is retained for Edinburgh and Tender is The Night and Song To The Siren would be brilliant.

My wife hopes he plays Dance Away (still her all time favourite) but I doubt that'll happen. Oh Yeah is currently there and I hope it stays setlisted.

I don't know how much control a band has over start and finish times at a venue, but presumably this would influence the length of a set. I'm guessing they work their way up from the songs they think the audience would expect (Love Is The Drug, Let's Stick Together, Do The Strand, Jealous Guy etc), choose a few songs to give various band members the chance to shine (My Only Love, Ladytron and If There Is Something all have lengthy solos), and then pick other songs according to how well they work live? I heard that More Than This wasn't played for a while because they couldn't get it to work live. Maybe this accounts for why All I Want Is You is never played?

In general for any artist the duration time is set by the venue/customer when the gig is negotiated at the outset. There may be a scale offered to a customer £X for 90 minutes £Y for 100, £Z for 120 and so on, then the client can choose. It can be the other way round where the venue/event/customer will say we need you to play for £ minutes how much will that cost?

Different shows have different needs for different lengths. Festivals will ususally have a 1 hour slot for someone like Ferry or mabe 80 minutes. You can see this from the set lists on this tour where he is doing 22 songs at some shows and festivals tend to be around 17-18.

Some venues will have a very strict finishing time due local council consent conditions that the venue must adhere to. This will be revolving around the availability of public transport, noise from the show if open air and near housing or noise from thousands of people walking home through residential areas after the show.

One thing for sure is that (unless there are exceptional circumstances) the band doesn't just turn up and play until they feel like finishing. It is all set out beforehand in the form of a contract and when this is breeched there are can be financial penalties.

Some of the physical set lists I have seen that are stuck to the monitor or stage floor have had times written against each song so that they know how long the show will be.

As for the choice of songs well I would guess that it consists of:

A certain amount of must do hits that are expected by most of the crowd.
Some songs that showcase the band
New material if promoting a new album.
Classic album tracks and rare/never played before songs to keep the die hards happy
The songs will be performed in an order that will pace the singers voice and not too much strain all at once.
Same as above but to pace the crowd as well as they will not be on their feet for Let's Stick Together etc if it was the second song and if the show ended with Bitter Sweet, Tara, Boys And Girls and Dreamhome then most of the crowd would go home feeling flat with not much good to say about the show

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With all of the above to consider there is one thing for sure, you will never keep everyone happy.

I saw Roxy die hards salivating around me in January when they played Sentimental Fool, 2HB, Bitter Sweet, Amazona etc and at the same time there were a lot of bored and disgruntled people sitting down bored to tears waiting to hear Dance Away and Angel Eyes.

Before any Roxy die hards criticise that section of the crowd, think of a famous band you like but dont have too many of their records but liked what you heard on the radio etc over the years and you went to see them, what would you be happy to hear?

J.O'B.

That's a good explanation John and it makes obvious sense. Of course, some acts just don't follow the rule book and do whatever they want to do as the mood takes them. Van Morrison and Neil Young are 2 notorious examples of this "you'll like what you're given and if you don't then that's tough" approach.

I like the Neil Young story where he walked on stage, told the audience that he was going to play his new album from start to finish, but promised, if they stuck with him, that he would then play them some stuff that they had heard before. He then worked his way through his new album, told the audience, to loud applause, that he would stick to his promise, and proceeded to work his way through his new album again !!!

I didn't know that bands charged by the minute. I suppose that makes sense because music is a business after all. What surprises me, however, is that if an act is contracted to do a certain number of minutes, why we hear stories of bands walking off stage after no time at all, only for ticket holders' complaints and demands for refunds to be ignored. I guess that the operators need to cover themselves, so they don't pass on the commitment to the audience that they have secured from the artists.

I take your point about the casual listener in the audience. I guess it would be too much to hope that they would have listened to Sentimental Fool, 2HB, Bitter Sweet, Amazona etc and realised that they are all so much better than the stuff they were hoping to hear? Only joking, I know that that would never happen.

I came away from the RM gig in January feeling a bit flat and put this down to the audience mix. For the first time I felt that the diehards were definitely in the minority, certainly in the area where I was seated. At the time, I was a bit precious about this but eventually acknowledged that there are probably not enough diehards out there anymore to fill venues of the size that will generate enough of a return to make touring financially attractive to the guys. Therefore, it follows that without the casual fan, there would have been no tour, so we should all embrace the casual fans and accept that part of the show at least has to be targetted at them. Actually, if these guys were in the majority, you could argue that RM were indulging us diehards by playing the stuff that we like. Either way, I suppose this is all academic now because I feel sure that the touring days are over for Roxy. However, if we ever feel that BF is focussing too much on populist material, let's just bear in mind that he needs to keep appealing to the wider audience otherwise the wider audience might just dry up.

I didn't know this either. Leonard Cohen played 2 hours 20 at Edinburgh Castle in July 2008. In Glasgow the same year, he played 2 hours 40. Paul Simon recently played around 20 mins longer in London than Glasgow. Bruce Springsteen of course can play anything from 2 hours 25 to 3 hours 30.

There's many other examples. I think the artist must have some discretion within the venue's rules and licensing arrangements.

I play in a band locally. We are your typical pub/wedding/private function band doing covers etc, the usual Brown Eyed Girl, Bad Moon Rising, Let's Twist again stuff. Just a bit of fun and a few pounds that pay for my foreign trips etc to go to see Roxy etc.

It is not much different from famous artists in that when offered a gig, we are either offered a fee we either accept or reject(usually by a pub as they have a maximum they can pay out before it is no longer cost effective) or if it is a wedding or private function we ask a few key things, Where? (to work out travel time/costs) Start Time/Finish Time to work out an overall time from leaving home to getting back home. Travel there setting up gear, doing the function, packing the gear and getting home. Based on that we work out a price, after all it is a job. Some venues will be very strict about when we stop due to licensing laws, location of the venue (residential area near by?) etc.

For someone like Roxy, or any other big name it doesn't make much difference how long the show is in terms of getting home as they are going back to a hotel as they are away from home anyway. The length of the show will have cost implications in other ways though. The Musician's Union have minimum musician's rate for performances, there is an add on factor for the length of show etc. Also to have a set list that will have for example 3 hours worth of material takes a up a lot of pre-production costs too. The session musicians (and key road crew) will be working for the band for maybe a month before they play to a paying customer. The musicians need to be paid for this time and this is ultimately re-couped through the ticket sales. A shorter set will have less pre-production and therefore less cost to the client/venue

J.O'B.

This never happened; at least not how you describe.

The closest incident happened on Neil Young's 1973 U.K. tour, where he opened each show with the original, nine-track Tonight's The Night song-cycle (unreleased at the time), which is bookended by two versions of the title track. The second half of the show consisted mostly of obscure album tracks. On two known occasions (Bristol and the Royal Festival Hall, London), Neil teased the audience during the encores with the line, "Here's a song you've heard before," then proceeded to play "Tonight's The Night" for a third time.

But he's never performed a whole album front-to-back twice on the same night.

It was in a documentary on the BBC. Could it be possible that they would allow the truth to be stretched - surely not? Actually, it was just a throwaway 3rd party comment in the programme, so I am being unfair here.

This is the extent of my authority on this topic and you clearly know your stuff, Peanut, so I am sure that you are right.

It is a pity though, because I like the story much better the way that I told it. Much more Rock and Roll !

No worries, Avondale. We all live and learn. (At least most of us do.)

I happen to be a keen Neil Young collector, so I have all the extant TTN tour tapes, plus several hundred others.

I, too, like the story as you relate it. Shame it isn't true. But the TTN tour was still uncompromising and confrontational, and very rock & roll.