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Lonely Dreamer wrote:

The only thing I personally disagree with is that I hate Speer's architecture, but the aesthetic of Riefenstahl's movies is impressive. Nobody who has ever watched them would deny that. Disclaimer in case some yellow press reporters read this: yes, she was also a completely despicable Nazi bitch and making a positive statement about the aesthetic of her movies is not a political statement. :roll:

Sometimes I doubt whether you can separate art from politics, ideology and criminal acts.

Especially Albert Speer who designed at least a part of the Auschwitz concentration camp was lucky to make the judges at the Nuremberg Trials believe that he didn't know anything about what was going on inside ... If you know that can you judge his buildings without bias? I cannot.

Beside that I am sure that Bryan Ferry is a conservative without extremist thoughts.

Sometimes I doubt whether you can separate art from politics, ideology and criminal acts.

Chers amis!

Thanks to Lonely dreamer and pianoman the intellectual bar of this forum has risen.

Besides all this, I am really looking forward the soundtrack with BFO!

Oberon: 'It is easy for us to call them "mitläufer"'.

A very good posting, Oberon - thank you.

In fact, that's the point. Luckily I was born in the Germany of 1959, not in 1929 or 1939. I grew up in a liberal democracy and never had to fight against a fascist ideology at the risk of my life.

And that's a point where my personal attitude has changed over the years. I never was a great fan of German Chancellor Helmut Kohl but his saying of the "mercy of a late birth" is simply true.

Leni Riefenstahl and many other artists arranged themselves more or less with the regime or sometimes supported it openly but they didn't kill anybody themselves. However, Albert Speer is a different case in my opinion. How would I have behaved in the Nazi dictatorship? But this is a musical thread, I don't want to go into more details ...

@ Oberon, Lonely Dreamer, Windswept2 and all the others: I enjoy it very much to have the opportunity to contribute to a thread with such a high standard of debate. Thank you for your contributions, too!

Author:	Roger [ Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Babylon Berlin
pianoman wrote: Lonely Dreamer wrote: The only thing I personally disagree with is that I hate Speer's architecture, but the aesthetic of Riefenstahl's movies is impressive. Nobody who has ever watched them would deny that. Disclaimer in case some yellow press reporters read this: yes, she was also a completely despicable Nazi bitch and making a positive statement about the aesthetic of her movies is not a political statement. Sometimes I doubt whether you can separate art from politics, ideology and criminal acts. Especially Albert Speer who designed at least a part of the Auschwitz concentration camp was lucky to make the judges at the Nuremberg Trials believe that he didn't know anything about what was going on inside ... If you know that can you judge his buildings without bias? I cannot. Beside that I am sure that Bryan Ferry is a conservative without extremist thoughts. If I may say so a posting of true intelligence and understanding Pianoman.

Author:	Lonely Dreamer [ Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Babylon Berlin
pianoman wrote: Sometimes I doubt whether you can separate art from politics, ideology and criminal acts. I'm not saying her movies can be separated from politics, of course they can't because, very obviously, they were propaganda movies for the nazis. However she did some groundbreaking work regarding perspective and editing (and all the other stuff I don't know how to say in English ) Here are a couple of links to photos of hers that I like: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a5/ea/ae/a5eaaeeec5e21c32d0f9a80e6fd33620--leni-riefenstahl-olympia.jpg https://www.flickr.com/photos/57440551@N03/16467346452/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/57440551@N03/16282422447/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/57440551@N03/15845776884/

Author:	Windswept2 [ Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Babylon Berlin
Hedonistic Hipsters, Windswept has looked at the snippets and it would appear that the tracks fit really well. Hopefully they'll be on Spotify soon. Looking forward to the series. It might be right down W2's street. He is a huge fan of Philip Kerr's Bernie Gunther novels and Babylon Berlin looks like it may have a similar Marlowesque vibe. More Than This, W2 would love our hero to score a complete movie. The cinematic style of both his Roxy and solo works make this a fascinating proposition and our hero once opined that he saw it as a future route for Roxy to explore together. The only problem could be having to work to a deadline. It doesn't really appear to be Bryan's strongest suit ! Salutations, W2

Author:	AzArtist [ Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Babylon Berlin
I think that Bryan would work very well with a deadline. Roxy Music as an album was produced quickly. Although the songs were years in the making. But he banged out Taxi and Dylanesque. Tom Waits has said one of the things that really helped his song writing was doing Coppola’s One From the Heart. He was in a studio office with a piano and that’s it. Just like the old days. They would tell him what they wanted. And he would have to bang it out. That ended up with an Oscar nomination and one of the most beautiful soundtracks albums ever. I always though Bryan could do a killer Bond song. Just think of the great video he could do.

Author:	Vinny [ Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Babylon Berlin
I always thought Limbo from Bete Noire would have been a good Bond theme (despite the percussion heavy Patrick Leonard production)

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Author:	Oberon [ Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Babylon Berlin
Chers amis! Thanks to Lonely dreamer and pianoman the intellectual bar of this forum has risen. Undoubtedly some of the artists and scientists who were active during the time of nazi Germany were very talented - like Leni R. and Wernher von Braun. It is easy for us to call them "mitläufer", but it must have been an almost impossible task to channel creativity in a benign way those days. Needless to say, the situation in Germany was horrible and extraordinary, but from a certain perspective, we are all "mitläufers". There is something evil and very primitive in our societies to this day. In order to live in this world we have to adapt to so much nonsense. All this said. I agree with pianoman and his opinion on architecture versus its creator. Besides all this, I am really looking forward the soundtrack with BFO!

Author:	Windswept2 [ Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Babylon Berlin
Oberon wrote: Chers amis! Thanks to Lonely dreamer and pianoman the intellectual bar of this forum has risen. Besides all this, I am really looking forward the soundtrack with BFO! Elegantly Ageing Hipsters, Windswept couldn't agree more and would add Oberon to the list of those that have raised the intellectual bar. W2 est d'accord avec tout ce que dit Oberon. Nobody describes the paradox of those times better than Philip Kerr in his Bernie Gunther novels and Windswept would urge all his cyber friends to give them a whirl. They are very cool and Bernie dresses well. Back to the sujet du jour, W2 would love our hero to do a complete soundtrack and he could certainly do a Bond score. That said, W2 would love to see him score something noirish and HBO's upcoming adaptation of the Gunther novels could be his opportunity. W2 calls on producer Tom Hanks to contact Studio One immediately and for Bryan to reassemble TBFO in anticipation. Quelle combinaison ! Salutations, Windswept.

Author:	pianoman [ Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Babylon Berlin
Oberon: 'It is easy for us to call them "mitläufer"'. A very good posting, Oberon - thank you. In fact, that's the point. Luckily I was born in the Germany of 1959, not in 1929 or 1939. I grew up in a liberal democracy and never had to fight against a fascist ideology at the risk of my life. And that's a point where my personal attitude has changed over the years. I never was a great fan of German Chancellor Helmut Kohl but his saying of the "mercy of a late birth" is simply true. Leni Riefenstahl and many other artists arranged themselves more or less with the regime or sometimes supported it openly but they didn't kill anybody themselves. However, Albert Speer is a different case in my opinion. How would I have behaved in the Nazi dictatorship? But this is a musical thread, I don't want to go into more details ... @ Oberon, Lonely Dreamer, Windswept2 and all the others: I enjoy it very much to have the opportunity to contribute to a thread with such a high standard of debate. Thank you for your contributions, too!

Author:	Richard [ Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Babylon Berlin
I was born in Hannover in 1959 pianoman wrote: Oberon: 'It is easy for us to call them "mitläufer"'. A very good posting, Oberon - thank you. In fact, that's the point. Luckily I was born in the Germany of 1959, not in 1929 or 1939. I grew up in a liberal democracy and never had to fight against a fascist ideology at the risk of my life. And that's a point where my personal attitude has changed over the years. I never was a great fan of German Chancellor Helmut Kohl but his saying of the "mercy of a late birth" is simply true. Leni Riefenstahl and many other artists arranged themselves more or less with the regime or sometimes supported it openly but they didn't kill anybody themselves. However, Albert Speer is a different case in my opinion. How would I have behaved in the Nazi dictatorship? But this is a musical thread, I don't want to go into more details ... @ Oberon, Lonely Dreamer, Windswept2 and all the others: I enjoy it very much to have the opportunity to contribute to a thread with such a high standard of debate. Thank you for your contributions, too!

Author:	DCJ [ Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Babylon Berlin
If anyone perhaps thinks that Speer was merely an architect, I would urge them to read the parts of Adam Tooze's (relatively) recent book The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy that discuss at length Speer's work in masterminding the Nazi war economy after the death of Fritz Todt in Feb. 1942. Had the analysis offered by Tooze been presented at the post-war Nuremberg Trial it is difficult to imagine how he would have received a mere 20 year sentence...

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